The Stirrer

without getting too Boris Johnson, surely devoting the whole of football focus to an abandoned match 20 years ago is a tad sanctimonious.. i remember being verbally abused by drunken alan hansen a few years ago when i was doing security at aintree and i had to remind him of the time someone looked him in the eyes and said "people are dying Alan!!"

You may be stirring up (I guess that's what this forum is for) a hornet's nest here - Five Live are devoting the whole of their day on Wednesday to the 20-year anniversary.... (and we are, of course, talkingabout more than "an abandoned football match")

MOST if not ALL of the victims may well have been innocent, you wouldn't wish a tragedy like this on your worst enemy, and the bereaved have my sympathy (and I do know someone who lost two family members in it)

BUT my experience of SOME Scousers is that they consider breaking the law very funny, think nothing of climbing over gates to get into football grounds, etc etc etc, and the worst fist-fight I ever saw was between two 8-year-olds queueing for a bus in Liverpool...... so I'm with you fella, and won't be tuning into Five Live on Wednesday....

in the grand scheme of things, there have been worse weekends I'm sure. And what chance did blackburn have today really? mind you they did give in early.
The loss of innocents is a terrible thing of course, but as a long term admirer of Sue Johnstone her contrived witterings today made me bileous.

when i worked as security at Butlins in pwllheli, there was usually much conflict between the irish and scousers, and unruly behaviour in the queues, in a moment of desperation to restore some order I once bellowed "stop shoving, this isn't Hillsborough!!" which for some reason provoked a massive amount of disorder and led me to being shuttled off to a broom cupboard for the rest of the night.. and much of the season.

Terrible so many people died, but the fire at Bradford in which many also died never seems to attract this attention.

insensitive pr**k .

so what you have met a few unruly scousers, what relevance does that have in a thread about the Hillsborough disaster?
And what do you mean by MOST if not all of the victims may well be innocent? You clearly don't know what you are talking about and are insensitive idiot just like the previous poster.

No.

I have an IQ of 148. So I may be insensitive but I'm not an idiot.

People die at sports events all over the world. It happened recently in Africa, it happened at Ibrox in 1902 and 1971, at Heysel, at Bradford etc etc etc

But Liverpool and its inhabitants seem to think they have a monopoly on grief, and that the whole world must join in.

"A few unruly scousers" is an understatement, I assure you. Is it just coincidence that the fans of one football club were involved in trouble at Hillsborough, Heysel, Athens..... no, it isn't. If you've mingled with them and encountered their attitude you will either understand or choose not to. That's why it's relevant to this thread.

To hell with political correctness, as it says on another thread.

I emailed the thread to a number of people who don't come on this forum and many agree.

And BTW, MOTD majoring on it at the start tonight as well, with Hansen putting on his sad face and saying "football doesn't matter" was hypocrisy in the extreme. How much money has he made out of it over the years....??

I recall the day. Me and my ex and son were at Drayton Manor. My ex always had his earphones on, to listen to the football. As we embarked on a ride, the word came round that people were dying at Hillsborough. It seemed like the world stood still as the news broke through. Wasn't until we returned home later that the impact of it sunk in. Having friends who are Liverpool supporters, we were devastated. I personally don't know anyone who died or was related to those that died, but I couldn't help but feel for the accounts of relatives, survivors, that were recounted in the Observer magazine a couple of weeks ago.

too true Pam and that never gets much of a replay. i remember it and it was horrific to watch

absolutely Mike, although i wouldnt be that harsh on hansen as to call him a [EDITED]
you bell

Your iq has no bearing on your knowledge of events.
What trouble at Hillsborough are you on about?
Was you even aware of the fact that Liverpool fans at Heysel stadium were being spat at bombarded, with missiles(several requiring hospital treatment) in a ground unfit for such occasion before they retaliated?
People have died at many different sporting occasions what's your point?Do you have some objection to people remembering a tragic event?
Regarding mingling with Liverpool fans, i have done so on hundreds of occasions and wouldn't dream of tarring them all with the same brush.All clubs have an element of idiots and trouble makers i certainly don't think Liverpool fans are anywhere near the worst in my experience.
your comments suggest that Liverpool think they have a monopoly on grief and the whole world should join in?? Your personal opinion ? based on what?
Finally your comments about Alan Hansen are bordering on sick.He witnessed dead children being lifted out of the crowd, he has met many of the bereaved and attended funerals.He also like other players realised 96 fans died coming to watch him play football.I don't see how it is hypocricy to state that football has no relevance when compared with such a tragic event.His earnings from the game have no relevance whatsoever.

Just for the record , fighting for your own survival whilst watching young children lose their fight is not something that will ever leave me or i imagine any person.Losing your children and burying them is not wallowing in self pity or having a monopoly on grief.The police made huge errors on the day and it still hurts many of the surviving victims and families of the 96 that no justice has seen to be done.


Maybe you aren't an idiot but i consider some of your comments insensitive and unfactual.

had a rethink i do think you are an idiot regardless of your suppoedly high iq.

Hmmm, the fact that you're quoting the wrong person there says a lot about yours, as does your inability to write or spell properly.

http://www.answers.com/topic/idiot

Funny, I said a while back after an exchange with another poster that I would stick to non-controversial threads from now on, and football and cricket.... the thing is, I know a lot about Liverpudlian football supporters. I won't go into detail because it seems that no amount of evidence will convince some posters that SOME of them (see my original post on this thread, which Mike didn't read carefully, or else he may not have accused me of insensitivity either) are rogues

As my final words on this thread (so I'll give Mike the opportunity to come back and hurl personal abuse, at whatever time of the day or night), I would heartily recommend the current (May 2009) issue of When Saturday Comes, which features a four-page spread (which I would say is about right and in proportion in a 48-page magazine) on the Hillsborough Anniversary, and which is well-balanced and well-written.

I would stress that you would need to read the whole (two articles) to get their full drift, but I'll quote here from Liverpool supporter John Williams who was heavily involved on the day:

"...ultimately Hillsborough served to obscure almost as much as it revealed. Football supporters had actually been abused by their clubs - and by the police - for decades. Over the past couple of years in researching a book about the history of Liverpool FC, I found that hundreds of Reds supporters regularly left matches in the 1950s - often before kick-off - because they feared for their own safety on impossibly packed terraces. The club did little to change their policy of cramming people in and hoping for the best. English football was lucky more people were not killed. And as Liverpool later strolled around Europe in the Seventies and Eighties, too many Reds - out for adventure - merrily bunked into grounds with little or no concern for their own safety or that of others.

The awful outcome at Heysel in 1985 - another great tragedy, but not enough remembered, respectfully, as also an important part of our historic fabric - thankfully served to slow the sometimes dangerous flow over walls and turnstiles when we eventually got back on the continent.

I think that the originator of this thread had in mind that what happened yesterday and will do so through to and including Wednesday runs the risk of being disproportionate.

That's what some of us object to, without in any way (see, again, my original post) failing to sympathise with the bereaved

Of course football fans have responsibilities when attending matches.At the Heysel stadium and Hillsborough the authorities got it desperately wrong.At Hillsborough the police got it so badly wrong 96 fans died and i hold them still to this day responsible.
It truly saddens me that people either too young to remember the events or are oblivious to the facts think this disaster was due to unruly fans or idiots pushing at the back.

People need to stop and consider why A) tickets are issued for matches and B) why turnstiles exsist.
Many, many football fans that day entered the ground via an opened gate (police decision) without even having to show their tickets.This meant fans weren't filtered through the turnstiles safely and also were not entering the correct entrance point to get to their designated area in relation to their ticket.That decision was the route cause of the disaster.After the tragedy unfolded i still had a full ticket stub and at no point was asked to produce it.
On the day we had left home with plenty of time to get to the match and enter the ground.We travelled on official football coaches who are experienced and we should of arrived a lot earlier than we did.Motorway hold ups due to a bad accident and roadworks meant many fans arrived close to kick off time.The police were obviously well aware of this and chose not to delay the kick off.Mounted police and other officers instead chose to open this fateful gate and herded fans towards it.Police officers were panicking and flustered outside the ground.Fans were anxious that they were going to miss the start of the match (one of the biggest of the season).
I should also add that ticket touts were plentiful in the 80's and the possibility is several fans may well arrived at the ground hoping to purchase tickets on the day.So there is a strong possibility that due to the fact that no one was checking tickets that many ticketless fans ntered via the open gate.It might be easy to condemn them for that with hindsight but i would well imagine that if a football fan was given the opportunity to enter a ground for free especially being a Fa cup semi that they would jump at the chance.
Also an important factor is the Leppings lane end had 3 entrances and the majority of the fans still outside close to kick off entered through one end.
For those who accuse scousers of wallowing in self pity ,etc should maybe talk to them and understand what happened that day.
I returned and sat on my coach after the events had unfolded.Remeber this was a time when we didn't have mobile phones.We sat for 2 and a half hours before leaving for home.I travelled that day with 2 cousins and 2 workmates, none of them made it back to the coach.Once i arrived in Birkenhead i rushed to a phone box and rang my uncle , i knew instantly in his voice that all was not well.One cousin dead, one cousin in hospital.I didn't have a number for my workmates so i called round the house.Their dad answered the door i could see into the living room and could see their mum in floods of tears being comforted by a relative.Both her sons were dead.My cousin in hospital wasn't seriously injured thankfully.In my story 5 teenagers went to a football match for a nice day out only 2 live to tell the tale.
Without going into graphic detail the sight of young girls and boys crushed to death in front of your very eyes is not an image easily erased.
So if youink i have or fellow scousers have a monopoly on grief in your opinion so be it.I still believe that many people still do not know the facts and are being insensitive.God bless the 96 fans R>I>P

Anyone attending Anfield as an away fan in the 70's and 80's will of course have nothing but pleasant memories.......

The Hillsborough dead were victims of monumental incompetence on behalf of the football authorities and the police. Highbury had been rejected as a semi-final venue because it had no "safety" fences. I wrote about the danger of these fences before Hillsborough in my fanzine Off The Ball, so it wasn't an unforseen danger.

The true events were also covered up and have still never been fully accounted for.

That said, I have some sympathy with the view that the Bradford fire and the Heysel disaster deserve greater attention - not at the expense of Hillsborough, but as well as.

(Incidentally, one poster complained via the reporting mechanism that this thread was "blatant trolling". I disagree. This is an important topical issue, with legitimate points of view on all sides).

Errr re-think again, it was Glyn boasting about his IQ....

There is an underlying thread here, which The Stirrer has correctly picked up. Why is the Hillsborough disastor is being given so much media attention, while the Bradford and Heysel stadium incidents have been largely forgotten. I don't know the answer, but is it due the following:
1) the Hillsborough stadium disaster was the final straw, forcing English football stadiums to be modernised.
2) the Hillsborough stadium disaster was widely filmed, from all angles, front start to finish.
3) the Hillsborough stadium disaster involved a top club, in which the fans were the victims. Heysel is something 'we' are ashamed of. Bradford involved a lower tier club.

These are not my opinions, just an attempt to explain the disparity in coverage between football disasters that occurred within a few years of each other.