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 Post subject: Save Sparkhill Baths and the Real Cost of PFI/PPP
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:50 
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The company who have made the offer to rebuild the Sparkhill pool at Moseley School is Pulse Fitness. My understanding is that they have a very good reputation.

Here's a link to a swimming pool that Pulse Fitness built which attracted people from areas of high economic deprivation - see http://www.pulseselect.com/media_casest ... edlock.htm

I still want to meet with Pulse Fitness to finalise their offer, in particular - how would they ensure the admission prices are affordable; can we add a learner pool to the design; how do we ensure a high standard of maintainance/cleanliness of the building and equipment.

In the £100million investment progrmme in our swimming baths, we set aside £15million for both Sparkhill and Moseley Road baths.

The costings are coming out as follows:

To restore and re-open Pool 1 of Moseley Road baths, plus various safety works, plus mechanical and electrical works to the building - £9million

Sparkhill baths: Option 1 - replacement of baths on present site; pool dimensions 25m by 13.5m (6 lanes); learner pool; 60 station gym; sauna; dance studio - £13.1million; annual running costs £184,000

Sparkhill baths: Option 2 - replacement of baths on present site; pool dimensions 25m by 8.5m (4 lanes); learner pool; 30 station gym; sauna; dance studio - £10.9million; annual running costs £334,000

Sparkhill baths: Option 3 - replacement of baths on Moseley School site as part of larger sports complex; entrance off Springfield Road; pool dimensions 25m by 13.5m (6 lanes) with movable floor; 80 station gym; sauna; dance studio; sports complex would include sports hall and floodlight five-a-side pitches - £3million; annual running costs £228,000

From an overall strategic objective, it would be irresponsible not to explore Option 3. This gives us the opportunity to provide swimming provision in Sparkhill/Springfield AND restore Moseley Road baths.

Once we have a final offer on Option 3, we will do a public consultation exercise.martin_mullaney
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I was wondering if Martin could clarify the options he has outlined for Sparkhill Baths-
Firstly, they do not compare like for like. It is easy to say option 3 is low cost- because it is a significant reduction in amenities.
Moseley school already has a gym, a dance studio and has astro turf/playing fields that can be hired. These were built very recently. I presume these will form a majority of the new sports complex (unless you are really aiming to throw away public money and destroy the current facility).
So option 3 is basically a pool and a sauna- which for 3 million pounds and 228, 000/year running costs for thirty years is starting to sound like not such a good deal.
In addition, a learner pool, a gym and a promised dance studio will be lost.

Secondly, I still don't understand the huge disparity in running costs between option 1 and 2. Two extra lanes in a swimming pool (which we know are loss makers) and an extra 30 stations in a gym are going to make a saving of £150,000/year. Why not build option 1 with a larger gym to increase revenue?

In addition to this, does anyone use the gym at Moseley school? I live a short distance from the gym- but it simply isn't open during off peak times. You can't use Be Active there at all if you are a man. You can only use it for 8 hours/week (out of a potential 40) if you are a women. People from the area around Moseley gym would use Sparkhill gym as it was open to the public and free. As private companies are basically motivated by profit, we have no assurance that this will improve in the new private facility. As for using swimming facilities during school hours- this used to be possible in Sparkhill. Schools predominantly used the learner pool and the bottom quarter of the 30m pool. I could swim lengths at any time during the day. This isn't possible in smaller pools.

This is starting to sound like a bad deal..........


Last edited by SaveSparkhillBaths on Fri Mar 26, 2010 23:21, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Save Sparkhill Baths
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:57 
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SaveSparkhillBaths wrote:
I was wondering if Martin could clarify the options he has outlined for Sparkhill Baths-
Firstly, they do not compare like for like. It is easy to say option 3 is low cost- because it is a significant reduction in amenities.
Moseley school already has a gym, a dance studio and has astro turf/playing fields that can be hired. These were built very recently. I presume these will form a majority of the new sports complex (unless you are really aiming to throw away public money and destroy the current facility).
So option 3 is basically a pool and a sauna- which for 3 million pounds and 228, 000/year running costs for thirty years is starting to sound like not such a good deal.
In addition, a learner pool, a gym and a promised dance studio will be lost.


Option 3 contains a swimming pool, 80 station gym, dance studio, sauna - all newly built

I need to meet with Pulse Fitness to discuss the learner pool. The main pool will have a movable floor, so it could be argued that this means that a learner pool isn't needed. My initial feeling is that we do need a learner pool.

The following project by Pulse Fitness at Carshalton College in London is similar to what is proposed at Moseley School - see http://www.pulseselect.com/project_deta ... oject_id=5


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 Post subject: Re: Save Sparkhill Baths
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 13:09 
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Call for Martin Mullaney to attend a meeting of Save Our Swimming Pool on Wednesday - apparently he's withdrawn as a result of the story breaking on Wednesday http://www.thestirrer.co.uk/february10/ ... 10210.html


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 Post subject: Re: Save Sparkhill Baths
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 13:12 
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TheStirrer wrote:
Call for Martin Mullaney to attend a meeting of Save Our Swimming Pool on Wednesday - apparently he's withdrawn as a result of the story breaking on Wednesday http://www.thestirrer.co.uk/february10/ ... 10210.html


I can't see the point. We haven't finished the details of option 3 and I've explained everything here on the messageboard. Indeed, I explained all the details at a meeting of the Friends of Moseley Road baths, which was attended by several leading members of the Friends of Sparkhill baths.

Once I have the finalised details on Option 3, then that would be the time to meet with both Friends groups.


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 Post subject: Re: Save Sparkhill Baths
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 13:24 
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Just read the article at http://www.thestirrer.co.uk/february10/ ... 10210.html

It describes the meeting as a 'public meeting'. I never agreed to a public meeting, but instead to a meeting with the Friends of Sparkhill baths.

If we are going to have a public meeting, then lets wait till option 3 is finalised.


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 Post subject: Re: Save Sparkhill Baths
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 13:55 
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Although not directly about Sparkhill Pool another breaking story
today concerns the planned cutbacks at Castle Vale Swimming Pool

It seems that public swimming will be cut to save money on the contingency
budget and only school and club swimming will take place in the future but
they may open it for a few hours a week so they can still call it a public
swimming pool.

We all know the reason for that is because they pay to use the pool but
children, senior citizens and other adults on the Be Active program do not.

Looks like half the staff are likely to be made redundant as well.

It is beginning to appears that there is a secret agenda to close down
all community pools across the city one by one to make way for the new
Whitby 50 meter pool in the city centre.

SEE Anger as Castle Vale swimming pool services cut

P.S To SaveSparkhillBaths have you made a FOI request to see the report
that lead to Sparkhill Baths being closed down it the first place we have
only got the councils word for it that it is beyond saving.


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 Post subject: Re: Save Sparkhill Baths
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 18:10 
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The decision to cut the hours down of the Castle Vale pool is disgusting, but not surprising. It follows that the peak time for a public pool would be a weekend - yet residents there will be expected to travel to Sutton or Erdington. Not very easy, when public transport links to either of these places are limited.

If this is a result of the "Be Active" programme cutting the income coming into the Leisure Services operation then heads should roll.


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 Post subject: Re: Save Sparkhill Baths
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 18:18 
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Kevin wrote:
The decision to cut the hours down of the Castle Vale pool is disgusting, but not surprising. It follows that the peak time for a public pool would be a weekend - yet residents there will be expected to travel to Sutton or Erdington. Not very easy, when public transport links to either of these places are limited.

If this is a result of the "Be Active" programme cutting the income coming into the Leisure Services operation then heads should roll.


This has nothing to do with the impact of the Be Active scheme.


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 Post subject: Re: Save Sparkhill Baths
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 18:22 
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martin_mullaney wrote:
This has nothing to do with the impact of the Be Active scheme.


So if there is a reduction in the number of paying customers, because they are getting "free swimming" how does it not have an impact? How much money is coming into the council to support Be Active.

I accept though Martin that this a decision made by the councillors on the Erdington Constituency Committee. If people in Castle Vale are genuinely angry about this (and from the Mail article it looks as if they are) I would suggest they ensure that those sitting councillors who are standing for election in the constituency on May 6th are not councillors on May 7th.


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 Post subject: Re: Save Sparkhill Baths
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 18:29 
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Kevin wrote:
martin_mullaney wrote:
This has nothing to do with the impact of the Be Active scheme.


So if there is a reduction in the number of paying customers, because they are getting "free swimming" how does it not have an impact? How much money is coming into the council to support Be Active.

I accept though Martin that this a decision made by the councillors on the Erdington Constituency Committee. If people in Castle Vale are genuinely angry about this (and from the Mail article it looks as if they are) I would suggest they ensure that those sitting councillors who are standing for election in the constituency on May 6th are not councillors on May 7th.


Under the Be Active scheme, swimming pools get a fixed sum of money based on the numbers of swimmers they were getting at the start of the scheme.

If Castle Vale pool reduces its hours, then it will get a corresponding reduction in Be Active monies.


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 Post subject: Re: Save Sparkhill Baths
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 18:33 
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Kevin wrote:
I accept though Martin that this a decision made by the councillors on the Erdington Constituency Committee. If people in Castle Vale are genuinely angry about this (and from the Mail article it looks as if they are) I would suggest they ensure that those sitting councillors who are standing for election in the constituency on May 6th are not councillors on May 7th.
How else can they pay for all the nice new computer and consultants for
the Councils Business Transformation scam other than cut service and make
staff redundant ?


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 Post subject: Re: Save Sparkhill Baths
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 18:38 
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So, if there is an increase in the number of "free" swimmers due to Be Active does this mean more money coming in to compensate.

I'm trying to get my head around whether this has been properly thought through, budgeted and funded. If there is an increase in swimmers because of take up of this scheme (which with what is being offered you'd think there would be), the fact that some pools are cutting hours suggest there is something wrong with the plan. Has there been a decline in swimmers using Birmingham's pools, and if there is does this not suggest Be Active has been a failure?


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 Post subject: Re: Save Sparkhill Baths
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 18:39 
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barnardhobbit wrote:
How else can they pay for all the nice new computer and consultants for
the Councils Business Transformation scam other than cut service and make
staff redundant ? [/b]


Which is why I say if people are unhappy with the performance of their elected councillors they should make them "redundant" on May 6th.


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 Post subject: Re: Save Sparkhill Baths
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 18:42 
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AFAIK Be Active is the PCTs paying the Council. Hence the Council gets revenue for this.


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 Post subject: Re: Save Sparkhill Baths
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 18:48 
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Kevin wrote:
Which is why I say if people are unhappy with the performance of their elected councillors they should make them "redundant" on May 6th.
But its not the local one that are making the decisions its those in the cabinet like Martin


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 Post subject: Re: Save Sparkhill Baths
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 18:50 
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barnardhobbit wrote:
Kevin wrote:
Which is why I say if people are unhappy with the performance of their elected councillors they should make them "redundant" on May 6th.
But its not the local one that are making the decisions its those in the cabinet like Martin


In the case of Castle Vale swimming pool, I was not involved in this decision. It was the Councillors of Erdington Constituency.


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 Post subject: Re: Save Sparkhill Baths
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 19:02 
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martin_mullaney wrote:
In the case of Castle Vale swimming pool, I wa not involved in this decision. It was the Councillors of Erdington Constituency.
You are part of the cabinet that set the parameters that forces the
Councillors of Erdington to find a extra £126,000 for Sports & Leisure


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 Post subject: Re: Save Sparkhill Baths
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 19:13 
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barnardhobbit wrote:
martin_mullaney wrote:
In the case of Castle Vale swimming pool, I wa not involved in this decision. It was the Councillors of Erdington Constituency.
You are part of the cabinet that set the parameters that forces the
Councillors of Erdington to find a extra £126,000 for Sports & Leisure


Actually, it is the whole Council. The parameters are set in the budget each year.

Last year, the Labour Councillors abstained from voting on the budget - so I guess they didn't really care what the budget was.


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 Post subject: Re: Save Sparkhill Baths
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 19:28 
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martin_mullaney wrote:
Actually, it is the whole Council. The parameters are set in the budget each year.

Last year, the Labour Councillors abstained from voting on the budget - so I guess they didn't really care what the budget was.

What difference would it make it they voted or not I don't see anyone
of you LibDems or Tories voting against anything that is proposed by the
council/cabinet.

How about this for a good idea as Mike Whitby ward is getting a brand
new swimming pool before anyone else why does he not give the money
he has got in the Harborne budget for swimming to Erdington and Hall
Green so they both can keep their swimming pool open to the public.


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 Post subject: Re: Save Sparkhill Baths
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 19:38 
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Please note that there is a seperate thread called Birmingham Swimming Pools - that is surely the appropriate place for a discussion about Castle Vale.

This thread was set up up to specifically accommodate a discussion about Sparkhill at the request of the Save Our Swimming group. I'm happy to merge them again, but it's daft to create a new thread about a specific subject which then lapses into a generic thread, given that we have a generic one already.

As for Sparkhill, am I the only one to note the irony that the thread is called "Save Sparkhill Baths". The PFI proposal would enable Sparkhill Baths to be saved. Do the campaigners only want it saved under certain, politically pure circumstances? Have they, incidentally, been to Tudor Grange to see what an excellent privately run pool can look like?


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